Talk:Changing the Wall

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It is unclear to me what the timeframe for the elements of this ritual would be. Can one begin it, and start doing parts, and complete them when they are done... or do you need to do them all in rapid succession? --Ringrose 00:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Each individual step should be done reasonably atomically rather than cumulatively, but they need not be done in rapid succession. --Boojum 19:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


Ritualese and invitations

So as I read it, Wei Han gets a pair of rocks and concentrates on them. Then there are sixteen actions, each of which need 11 (probably 12 by the time we do this, sorry) successes.

While I understand how these invite the Earth of the Wall and transformation, how do they invite or invoke the spirits of winter since the winter spirits do none of the sixteen actions? --Ringrose 00:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

This is magic ritualese, which you aren't as familiar with, having not tried to design a ritual yourself. If you do "Water / Fire / Wood / Metal" that leaves an Earth-shaped hole, and you get Earth in the final result. You invoke all but the missing ones; with that, you invite the missing ones. --Boojum 19:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

If you fail a roll

This is a lot of rolls. What happens if one of them is failed? Is there a way to recover? --Ringrose 00:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

There are no terrible consequences to failing a roll. You just need to succeed at it eventually for it to count. --Boojum 19:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Done to Wei Han

It seems like it would be appropriate to complete some ritual steps during combat. A rock charged with 12 successes of Shen-Ji blowing up Northern invaders should be better for our purposes than a rock charged with 12 successes of Shen-Ji setting an elephant on fire, even if the former occurs in a less controlled environment. --HeidiB 14:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I was inferring from context that everything had to be done *to* Wei Han, so I was assuming that if you wanted a Phoenix doing 10 successes of fire damage it had to be done to Wei Han. That's a big pile-o-damage. I could be wrong, which would be healtier for Wei Han. Elizabeth 20:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, as I read it, everything has to be done to him as a proxy for the wall. This should keep the healers plenty occupied... -Derrick
Oh and just be glad that this isn't a real Grand Ritual as you'd need N^3 experiments where N is the power. -Derrick
So we have to get the Nnortherners to charge the rocks before and after they blow Wei Han up? --Grasshopper 12:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Northerners don't have a cycle spirit, so they can't be used for this. -Derrick

The actions

OK, so the 16 actions are:

  1. Control of Fire
  2. Creation of Fire
  3. Destruction of Fire
  4. Seeking of Fire
  5. Control of Metal
  6. Creation of Metal
  7. Destruction of Metal
  8. Seeking of Metal
  9. Control of Water
  10. Creation of Water
  11. Destruction of Water
  12. Seeking of Water
  13. Control of Wood
  14. Creation of Wood
  15. Destruction of Wood
  16. Seeking of Wood
Note that Wei Han is the target of the actions, not the element. So "Destruction of Wei Han with Fire" is throw a firebolt at him - not "Destruction of Fire" to put a fire out. Maybe "Control with Fire" rather than "Control of Fire" is the way to phrase it. --Boojum 23:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Sure, but the sorcery terms have always been "Verb of Element" so I'm just keeping the same terminology. Besides, "Destruction of Fire with Wei Han" conjures this great image of throwing him about to smother a fire. :) -Derrick
  • (Tiger, Tortoise, Monkey) need to do 2, 2, 1 (not in that order)
  • (Butterfly, Phoenix, Serpent) need to do 2 each
  • (Fox, Spider, Magpie) need to do 2, 2, 1 (not in that order)


Moved to the main page to make it easier to find....

Picking the rock

Any idea what the effects of the different countries are likely to be? --Ringrose 03:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


Anto/Kurgan makes the following point:

I may have missed discussions, but my reading of what's on the Wiki is that it's not necessarily the choice of which country the rock comes from which is important. All it says is "another rock from elsewhere in the Empire that you find significant to the change you wish". To me that doesn't say "pick one of 12 choices". It says "pick a rock from somewhere in the Empire, not from outside of it". Like if you want the wall to be more allowing of passage through it, you could pick a rock taken from a gate or a doorway, or if you want the wall to have firey defenses you'd take a lava rock, and you don't necessarily have to be thinking of any change related to the country/cycle selection.

What I want is something which says "passage is permitted, when necessary and appropriate, for citizens of the Empire" without sacrificing defense. Actually, I feel less uncomfortable with "passage is permitted, when necessary and appropriate, for the Dragon Army" This may mean I'm looking for a portal which is used, but has never been taken by an enemy. Ideas?
Hm. I wonder if there was a similar portal used by the Spider to make the previous change, and if we can find out what it was.
Anyway, we're talking about a change which I cannot feel comfortable about. Because of the changes the Spider wrought, we are contemplating something which I must feel in my gut is not right. But my mind says otherwise.

Ideas for Locations

  • A walled city gate
    • Seems to have too much traffic, and too little control.
    • Stone Drum has the most impressive walls, although some of that is the side of the tor.
    • The Hidden City is probably the best defended.
  • A gate to a walled estate (such as a gardener's gate almost nobody but the grounds staff uses).
    • Possible, but might not be guarded enough.
  • A gate such as the Gate of Supreme Harmony in the Hidden City, formally guarded by the Dragon Army, where only the Emperor and his family are permitted to pass.
    • Might be a good choice, but difficult to manage. If somebody has a way to evaluate this possibility before the next run in the Hidden City, please consider using it.
    • What would this mean for Wei Han if/when there is a Spider emperor?
  • Possibly a customs house? Imperial, stops everyone, regularly manned. Might not throw enough people back.
  • Are castle's in genre? a bit from next to the drawbridge might work.
  • What about a dragon army barracks?
    • The older Dragon Army training camps have walls and gates, especially the ones in the Savannah. They're not as serious fortifications as a city wall.

Pending questions to help choose

  • Takanata: "Will the changes to the wall be more in keeping with a solid defense that allows people to pass beyond it to defend the empire if we use a stone from the Gate of Supreme Harmony or from a gate in the inner wall of Stone Drum".
Will the changes to the Wall be more in keeping with allowing the Dragon Army to cross at need for the defense of the Empire with a stone taken from the Gate of Supreme Harmony, or a stone taken from the inner fortifications of Stone Drum?
At the moment, the latter.
  • Takanata (or anybody else who can find the answer): Similar question, comparing a stone from the gate in Stone Drum with a stone from the wall there.
  • Anybody, once a decision is made: what are the downsides.

The Plan

To get this rolling, I'm going to start with the "control" portions. The procedure is to spend a yin on this rock, a yang on that rock, and then a chi when you roll.

  • Control by Fire: Xian, can you do an 11-success fire related convince? Waiting for Cael.
  • Control by Metal: I would like to hire a smith to make some 11-success chains, which Wei Han will then try to burst. Li Merit, will you please help me hire one. On hold, the best possibility is in the City of Lights.
  • Control by Water: Does some party member have a relevant skill for trapping Wei Han in 11 successes of ice chip of doom? If so, we'll travel to the shore to do this one in case he can't break out. Looking for how to do it with laughing shadow.
  • Control by Wood: Anto, when you're done with the bear please spar with me for 11 successes of grasping vines. On hold, waiting for Anto.

So we'll add some of the crafting ones.

  • Creation by Metal
  • Creation by Water
  • Creation by Wood
I bet that silk artist lady would be good at one of these! Also, why are we on the Talk page? --HeidiB 15:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)